Ask Norman

Combined trophy hauls, Brits abroad

July 31, 2012
By Norman Hubbard
(Archive)

Norman Hubbard is ESPN's resident anorak. If you have any questions on football facts, statistics or trivia, please send them to asknorman@hotmail.com and he'll try to answer as many as possible.

There are successful players, successful managers, and successful players who go on to become successful managers. My question is who is the most successful boss who was a former player, combining honours won as a player and as a manager? Zahan M asked

Johan Cruyff could have challenged Fergie if he had not retired early in his managerial career.
SoccernetJohan Cruyff has parted ways with Chivas

The answer is all too familiar and regular readers may find his presence a tad repetitive. Sir Alex Ferguson has won 47 major trophies as a manager - for more on that, here is an earlier column on the most successful managers of all time - that puts him at the top of a combined list. Ferguson never won a major trophy as a player, finishing second in the Scottish Division 1 with Dunfermline and being a runner-up in the Scottish Cup with Rangers but his managerial haul is so large that he is still in the lead and, as a former player, he meets Zahan's criteria - whereas, say, Jose Mourinho does not.

Among those with silverware to their name as both player and manager, Ferguson's closest challenger is an old rival. We examined the most decorated players of all time last year and Kenny Dalglish has 29 pieces of silverware. In addition, Ferguson's fellow Scot has won 12 trophies as a manager. They could give him a combined haul of 41 although, as he won Division 1, the FA Cup and the Charity Shield in 1986 as both player and manager, it is probably more accurate to only count each success once, giving him 38.

Definitely on 37 is Johan Cruyff, who won 23 trophies as a player and a further 14 as a manager and who, had his managerial career not ended at 49, might have beaten Ferguson.

Among others to prosper as both player and manager are Mircea Lucescu with 32 trophies (eight as a player and 24 as a manager), Giovanni Trapattoni with 31 (seven and 24 respectively), Billy McNeill, also with 31 (23 and eight), Pep Guardiola, another on 31 if his Olympic Gold as a player is counted (17 and 14),Valeri Lobanovsky with 30 (two and 28), Jock Stein with 28 (two and 26), Ottmar Hitzfeld with 27 (three and 24), Ernst Happel with 24 (seven and 17), Franz Beckenbauer with 23 (19 and four), Nils Arne Eggen with 22 (two and 20), Miguel Munoz with 22 (seven and 15), Fabio Capello with 21 (six and 15), Bob Paisley with 21 (one and 20) and Alfredo di Stefano who won six trophies as a manager and, depending upon your criteria, 21 or 26 as a player (the column on successful players explains more). Di Stefano's former Real Madrid colleague Ferenc Puskas is on 19 - though, again, some may disagree, as I have excluded some of the competitions he has won - along with another who gave distinguished service at the Bernabeu, Vicente del Bosque. Incidentally, both are behind a man whose presence on this list may surprise many: Alex McLeish, who has 12 trophies as a player and a further nine in management.

I have excluded players who have never managed, though as the two previous pieces show, Ryan Giggs actually ranks above successful managers and players such as Trapattoni and Guardiola purely as a player.

I wanted to ask why Liverpool are entering the Europa League at the 3rd qualifying round as League Cup winners instead of in the group stages as FA Cup runners up. Doesn't the runner up in the FA Cup take the place of the FA Cup winners if the team they lose to qualifies for the Champions League? Ian from Luxembourg asked

I passed this one over to my colleague Dale Johnson, who spends more time studying UEFA's rules and regulations. He explained: "The winner of the FA Cup gets a direct place in the Europa League groups. The only way the runner-up of the FA Cup can get into the Europa League is if the winners of the FA Cup qualify for the Champions League.

"So, that's what has happened to Liverpool - but the runners-up in the FA Cup go in at the lowest possible point for that nation, as they have taken the place as a result of other factors and not their own achievement. That means Liverpool would get a 3Q place - which they already have anyway from winning the League Cup. If Chelsea had not won the Champions League, it would be Chelsea group stage, Newcastle play-off round, Liverpool 3Q. If FA Cup winners do not then need their place in the Europa League group stage it transfers to the highest place in the league, which is why Tottenham are in the group stage. If Liverpool had beaten Chelsea in the FA Cup final it would have been LFC group stage, Spurs play-off round and Newcastle 3Q."

Have Liverpool ever bought a player directly from Manchester United or vice versa? Ziyaad Chothia asked

Yes, but not for almost half a century. The last was Phil Chisnall, a product of Manchester United's prolific youth system, who joined Liverpool for £25,000 in 1964. The most recent player to appear for both clubs was Michael Owen and, before him, Paul Ince, but his route from Old Trafford to Anfield involved a two-season stay at Inter Milan. One other big name who played for both, though it is often forgotten, is Peter Beardsley, who made a solitary appearance for United.

There is one particularly notable transfer - of sorts - from Anfield to Old Trafford. Matt Busby was a Liverpool wing-half during the 1930s before, like most servicemen, making guest appearances for a host of teams during the Second World War. In 1945, he was appointed manager of Manchester United.

In addition, five players have gone directly from Liverpool to United, all in the first half of the 20th century: Tom Chorlton, Tom Miller, Tommy Reid, Ted Savage and the most significant of them, Allenby Chilton, who would go on to captain Busby's United.

Including Chisnall, four made the opposite journey: John Sheldon, later banned in a betting scandal, Fred Hopkin, a title-winner at Anfield, and Tommy McNulty.

• After the question in the last column about games outside the UK and Ireland where an Englishman, a Scotsman and an Irishman all scored twice, reader Clayton Freeman has been doing some research....

England's Gary Liniker scored in tandem with Wales' Mark Hughes at Barcelona
GettyImagesEngland's Gary Liniker scored in tandem with Wales' Mark Hughes at Barcelona

He writes: "As far as I can tell, this situation is without precedent for leagues outside Britain and Ireland. Perhaps not surprisingly, there are very few instances outside Britain in which English, Scottish, and Irish players have all scored even once.

"In fact, based on my research, a match with goals by English, Scottish, and Irish players has only one confirmed occurrence in the four leading continental leagues. The closest instance I found occurred at the Camp Nou on March 25, 1987, when Barcelona defeated Osasuna by a 4-2 score. England's Gary Lineker struck twice and Scotland's Steve Archibald scored once for Barcelona, while Ireland's Michael Robinson replied for the Basque club.

"There are relatively few instances of matches on the continent in which players from as few as two of the British and Irish associations have scored. I looked for matches in which players from two or more of the British and Irish associations tallied goals - for these purposes, I also included players from Wales and Northern Ireland.

"It's possible that I may have missed some matches from some of the French seasons, which are often erratically documented, although the British presence in the French game has usually been extremely sparse. Also note that this list includes only matches in which players from two different countries scored - thus, for instance, Olympique Marseille matches from the early 1990s with goals for both Chris Waddle and Trevor Steven (both English) aren't included here.

"Among the most frequent pairs of British and Irish players combining for goals is John Aldridge and Dalian Atkinson, who both scored on several occasions during the 1990-91 season for Real Sociedad.

5/12/48: Padova 1-4 AC Milan

Charles Adcock [ENG - Padova], Paddy Sloan [IRL - AC Milan]

3/9/61: Torino 3-3 Vicenza

Denis Law [SCO], Joe Baker [ENG] 2 (both Torino)

22/10/61: Juventus 2-4 Inter

Gerry Hitchens [ENG - Inter], John Charles [WAL - Juventus]

28/10/84: Sampdoria 2-2 Torino

Graeme Souness [SCO], Trevor Francis [ENG] (both Sampdoria)

10/9/86: Barcelona 2-0 Cadiz

Gary Lineker [ENG], Mark Hughes [WAL] (both Barcelona)

26/10/86: Barcelona 4-0 Las Palmas

Mark Hughes [WAL], Gary Lineker [ENG] (both Barcelona)

17/1/87: Barcelona 4-1 Athletic Bilbao

Gary Lineker [ENG], Mark Hughes [WAL] (both Barcelona)

5/4/87: Atletico Madrid 0-4 Barcelona

Steve Archibald [SCO], Gary Lineker [ENG] (both Barcelona)

23/7/88: Caen 2-3 FC Nantes

Brian Stein [ENG - Caen], Mo Johnston [SCO - Nantes]

12/8/89: FC Metz 2-3 Olympique Lyon

Eric Black [SCO - Metz], Mick McCarthy [IRL - Lyon]

10/12/89: FC Metz 3-2 Olympique Marseille

Eric Black [SCO - Metz] 2, Chris Waddle [ENG - Marseille]

10/2/91: Real Sociedad 3-1 Real Burgos

John Aldridge [IRL], Dalian Atkinson [ENG] 2 (both Real Sociedad)

3/3/91: Real Sociedad 3-1 Real Oviedo

John Aldridge [IRL], Dalian Atkinson [ENG] 2 (both Real Sociedad)

12/5/91: Real Sociedad 2-1 Atl. Madrid

Dalian Atkinson [ENG], John Aldridge [IRL] (both Real Sociedad)

18/5/91: Barcelona 1-3 Real Sociedad

Dalian Atkinson [ENG], John Aldridge [IRL] 2 (both Real Sociedad)

"If there are any other actual cases in which players from three different British or Irish associations scored twice each in a foreign league, quite possibly they may have occurred in the heyday of the North American Soccer League in the late 1970's."

Clayton also pointed out that this was the first occasion in the history of the MLS that an Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman all scored but, with Scots such as Boyd and Kenny Miller and Ireland's Keane now plying their trade in North America, it could happen more often in the future.